View the full episode transcript.
When Los Angeles father or mother Lila Byock’s son began center college, his grades all of the sudden collapsed.
It didn’t make sense. “He’d all the time been a vibrant, curious, engaged child who did rather well in class,” Byock stated. She and her husband had been confused and anxious.
Lecturers assured the household that their son understood the fabric and the issue wasn’t lecturers. “They stated, ‘He simply can’t stay on task on his iPad,’” she continued.
That reply stunned Byock. Like many mother and father, she assumed that after pandemic distant studying ended, lecture rooms had largely returned to face-to-face instruction. As a substitute, she realized her son was spending a lot of his college day on a district-issued machine.
“He was scrolling YouTube Shorts throughout math class. He was enjoying Fortnite battles with classmates throughout class,” Byock stated. Different college students watched streaming reveals throughout lunch on school-issued iPads, and one scholar even confirmed pornography on a college machine, in accordance with Byock.
After speaking together with her son, Byock realized he wasn’t making an attempt to interrupt guidelines, however quite, he felt trapped by distractions he couldn’t appear to withstand. “It was eroding his shallowness,” she stated. “He advised us, ‘I need to cease, and I don’t suppose I can.’”
When Byock requested college directors how units had been getting used and what safeguards existed, the college’s solutions didn’t fulfill her.
Byock’s expertise displays a bigger shift in American lecture rooms. Over the past 15 years, faculties invested billions of {dollars} in laptops, tablets and academic software program, usually below the promise that expertise would personalize studying and put together college students for a digital future. At present, some educators and oldsters are starting to ask whether or not these instruments modified lecture rooms in methods they by no means supposed.
The promise of training expertise
For many years, training expertise — additionally referred to as ed tech — has been marketed as a option to make studying extra custom-made, environment friendly and equitable. Author and ed tech historian Audrey Watters stated these guarantees stretch again lengthy earlier than laptops or synthetic intelligence.
Within the early 1900s, educators embraced standardized testing and intelligence testing as a option to make studying extra measurable and goal. That very same logic ultimately formed instructional software program, together with the creation of the “teaching machines” designed to routinely grade a number of alternative questions and aspirationally automate instructing. Private computer systems entered lecture rooms within the 1980s, internet-connected studying expanded within the 1990s and 2000s, and after 2010 districts quickly adopted one-to-one laptop computer packages. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 and the speedy push to distant studying made the total transition to digital studying practically full by offering college students and faculties with web connectivity, units and curriculum. Colleges have lengthy since reopened, however the reliance on ed tech continues.
“We see this lengthy historical past of this need to automate training, automate instructing, automate testing, that’s very a lot certain up in actually this very outdated story of this concept that if we are able to simply measure all the things, then maybe we are able to engineer issues in order that they’re optimized,” Watters stated.
Nonetheless, lecture rooms don’t work that approach.
“People are messier,” she added. College students don’t all develop, suppose or be taught in an identical methods. “This need to standardize and optimize issues as a science has nice enchantment however I’m unsure it’s really sensible or sensible.”
Watters is especially skeptical of one among ed tech’s central promises: personalization. Instructional software program usually claims to tailor instruction to every scholar’s wants. However Watters says that promise begins with an assumption that academics themselves lack adequate perception into their college students.
“There’s this notion from outdoors of the classroom that one way or the other academics don’t know what’s occurring and that they want this expertise with a purpose to really perceive college students after which have the ability to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to satisfy these college students’ wants,” she stated.
Lecturers have lengthy integrated movies, computer systems and different digital instruments into classes. The distinction at this time is that many educational selections are increasingly shaped by software platforms designed outdoors the classroom.
“There’s some margin for experimentation and play, in fact, however principally you’ve misplaced your company and autonomy as a result of the entire imaginative and prescient of what issues appear like is de facto within the fingers of those expertise corporations,” Watters stated. “They’ve already determined what instructing and studying appear like with their instruments.”
That concern resonates with Molly Esquivel, a fifth-grade trainer in Fullerton, California. She recalled being instructed to manage the studying program i-Able to her college students, regardless of believing it wasn’t the proper educational alternative. When she objected, “the principal got here again at me and stated, ‘You need to do that,’” she stated.
For Esquivel, the difficulty extends past one software program program.
“It skips over the very basis of curriculum and instruction and goes proper to handing over that pedagogic energy to a tool quite than an individual,” she stated. “ And that, to me, will not be sound observe.”
She stated it’s apparent when college students are on bodily supplies versus individually on units. “I oftentimes seek advice from my classroom as a residing, respiration organism,” she stated. College students work together with each other; they transfer and clear up issues collectively. When each scholar is on a tool, “they’re now interacting with an inanimate object.”
Some faculties are pulling again on tech use
At McPherson Center Faculty in Kansas, Principal Inge Esping stated academics started elevating considerations that district-issued Chromebooks had been changing into distractions quite than educational instruments. Lecturers discovered themselves spending extra time monitoring screens than interacting with college students.
“They, too, felt actually tied to their very own units,” Esping stated of educators. “They need to be busy round their classroom and serving to college students stay centered [and] downside clear up.”
Rather than eliminating technology, college leaders and academics at Esping determined to alter how college students entry it. As a substitute of taking Chromebooks all over the place, units stay on classroom carts and are used when academics consider they add educational worth. The shift wasn’t framed as a ban, Esping stated, however as a possibility to reevaluate their relationship to expertise. “Over this subsequent 12 months, we’ll actually assess how usually are we on screens to think about if we have to have further targets [related to technology] or not,” she added.
Since Lila Byock first started elevating considerations with Colleges Past Screens – the advocacy group she based due to her son’s expertise in class – the Los Angeles Unified School District has adopted grade-level limits on student screen time. The brand new coverage prohibits display screen use altogether in kindergarten and first grade, and permits households to decide out of taking district units house.
She sees the coverage as progress, even when she believes extra work stays. “One of many issues we’ve been pushing for is a moratorium on AI use within the classroom on scholar units till the district develops a complete AI coverage,” Byock famous.
Her household’s story started with one struggling scholar, however the dialog it helped spark has grown into something much larger.
Through the summer time, Byock went to drop off her son’s enrollment papers and one of many college’s directors talked about that this 12 months mother and father can anticipate a renewed concentrate on hands-on studying and extra pencil-and-paper activities. So as to accommodate analog studying, the college had ordered “tons of additional paper.”
Episode transcript
Nimah Gobir: Welcome to MindShift, the place we discover the way forward for studying and the way we elevate our youngsters. I’m Nimah Gobir.
Nimah Gobir: Through the 2024-25 college 12 months, Lila Byock’s son had simply began center college. After which one thing shifted. He started bringing house the worst grades he had ever acquired.
Lila Byock: He’d all the time been a vibrant, curious, engaged child who did rather well in class And my husband and I had been confused and anxious.
Nimah Gobir: The factor is – it wasn’t that Lila’s son didn’t perceive the fabric. His academics really advised her he’s above grade degree.
Lila Byock: They stated, “He simply can’t keep on activity on his iPad.”
music
Nimah Gobir: They had been speaking about his school-issued iPad —
one that each scholar within the Los Angeles Unified Faculty District receives below a one-to-one machine mannequin. In school, college students had been required to make use of a web based program referred to as i-Prepared to finish assignments. However there was nothing stopping them from opening one other tab — and doing, effectively… principally the rest.
Lila Byock: We stated, effectively, how a lot time is he spending on his iPad? They usually stated, Effectively, we use it kind of for all the things all day. And that was… a whole revelation for us.
Nimah Gobir: As Lila began asking extra questions, she realized what her son — and lots of of his classmates — had been really doing through the college day.
Lila Byock: Our little one was. Scrolling YouTube shorts all throughout math class. He was enjoying Fortnite battles together with lots of his different classmates throughout class. A scholar at lunchtime was watching Squid Sport on his college issued iPad. Um, and, you realize, my son watched that with him. Um, anyone confirmed him porn on a college issued machine.
Nimah Gobir: After speaking it via together with her son, Lila realized he was simply as annoyed as she was. He’d all the time been engaged in class, and now he felt trapped in habits he couldn’t appear to cease.
Lila Byock: It was prefer it was eroding his shallowness. And he advised us, you realize, I need to cease and I don’t suppose I can.
Nimah Gobir: Worse but, There have been no clear insurance policies. No safeguards. When Lila realized how a lot the IPads had been getting used, she despatched a listing of inquiries to the college’s directors
Lila Byock: And the solutions I acquired again had been simply fully unsatisfying. It was as if nobody had ever thought of this stuff earlier than and [00:06:20][32.1]Lila Byock: [00:07:00] that raised each crimson flag for me.
Nimah Gobir: Lila is way from alone. Variations of her story are coming from mother and father everywhere in the nation.
Nimah Gobir: In 2024, many public faculties responded to considerations about distraction by banning scholar cell telephones. However in lots of instances, the display screen time didn’t disappear, it simply shifted to school-issued units. So at this time on MindShift, we’re asking three huge questions : What function ought to training expertise really play within the classroom? When does it assist — and when does it get in the best way? And is it time to rethink the one-to-one machine mannequin altogether? All of that and extra, after the break.
Nimah Gobir: To know how faculties acquired to a spot the place college students spend a lot of the day on screens, it helps to zoom out.
Audrey Watters is a author and historian who research training expertise. She says the debates we’re having about ed tech at this time stretch again to approach earlier than college students had been utilizing laptops..
Audrey Watters: We see this kind of lengthy historical past of this need to kind of automate training, automate instructing, automate testing, that’s very a lot certain up in actually this very outdated story of this concept that if we are able to simply, if we are able to simply measure all the things, then maybe we are able to kind of engineer issues in order that they’re optimized.
Nimah Gobir: Audrey says among the earliest ed tech guarantees didn’t begin with computer systems in any respect — they began with standardized testing.
Audrey Watters: The concept of making a a number of alternative check was in order that you might eliminate any kind of subjectivity and make this subject extra goal.
Audrey Watters: You need to have the ability to develop a machine that may administer, grade, and train extra effectively, extra objectively, than academics.
Nimah Gobir: Effectivity. Objectivity. Optimization. These concepts have formed training expertise ever since. In line with the Nationwide Training Coverage Middle 13 million college students throughout the US use iReady of their lecture rooms. In it, college students work on classes that modify primarily based on their solutions, so in the event that they miss lots of solutions on a sure topic, they get extra questions that assist them observe that space. There are different comparable packages in use like Khan Academy, Ascend Math and ReadTheory.
Nimah Gobir: As current as 2024, faculties spent 30 billion on training tech. It’s projected to extend.The promise to colleges is that these merchandise will measure development, determine areas of want, and fill in studying gaps for those who use their adaptive studying fashions
Nimah Gobir: Audrey says that each wave of ed tech guarantees to enhance studying, however beneath these guarantees is a deep discomfort with how human and unpredictable lecture rooms really are.
Nimah Gobir: However Audrey says that mind-set nonetheless, runs into an issue. Studying doesn’t behave like a machine.
Audrey Watters: We need to consider training as a science. I feel we need to take into consideration studying as a science. And I don’t say this as if it’s not, however that doesn’t appear to ever fairly fully seize what occurs each individually, what makes us love sure topics for instance, be curious and taken with sure concepts after which be totally detached to others. I’m unsure that we are able to kind of science our approach out of that. [00:03:00][31.2]
Nimah Gobir: The enchantment is straightforward to grasp. If each scholar learns otherwise, wouldn’t it’s useful to have software program that might adapt to every little one’s wants? That’s been one among ed tech’s strongest promoting factors. However Audrey says the concentrate on personalization begins with a troubling assumption.
Audrey Watters: There’s this notion from outdoors of the classroom that one way or the other academics don’t know what’s occurring and that they want this kind of science and so they want this expertise with a purpose to really perceive college students after which have the ability to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to satisfy these college students’ wants. [00:09:45][18.9]
Nimah Gobir: To make one factor clear, academics have used expertise creatively for many years — They could present quick movies as an example an idea and even take college students on a digital subject journey.
Nimah Gobir: Oftentimes studying with tech is formed by the businesses that make the instruments
Audrey Watters: They’ve already determined what instructing and studying appear like with theirs with their instruments. – After all, there’s some margins for experimentation and play, in fact, however principally you’re nonetheless kind of you’ve misplaced your company and autonomy as a result of the entire kind of imaginative and prescient of what issues appear like is de facto within the fingers of those expertise corporations. [00:12:29][19.8]
Nimah Gobir: Audrey’s argument is that training expertise has failed as a result of it was constructed to standardize studying.
Nimah Gobir: Lila Byock, the father or mother we heard from earlier, was watching what occurred when studying was achieved nearly fully via a display screen.
Lila Byock: For my son, um, college grew to become the place the place he might primarily have unrestricted display screen time.
Nimah Gobir: Whereas she was going via this, she felt remoted.
Lila Byock: I began confiding in another mother and father of center schoolers and each single individual I talked to stated, oh, thank God it’s not simply us. Everybody was coping with the identical factor and nobody was speaking about it as a result of we had all simply type of accepted the concept that for some purpose our youngsters wanted these web linked units. On their desks all day in class.
Nimah Gobir: Collectively, Lila and likeminded mother and father and academics fashioned a gaggle referred to as Colleges Past Screens to push for adjustments in how faculties use expertise.
Lila Byock: There’s a lot parental and trainer outrage and discontent concerning the hours and hours and hours our youngsters are spending on these apps, and I consider we’re going to see a shift in a few of these insurance policies.
Nimah Gobir: But when faculties do resolve to alter course, what would academics really need as a substitute? Molly Esquivel, a sixth grader trainer, a fifth-grade trainer at a public college in Fullerton, California, doesn’t need to eliminate expertise fully. She thinks that academics ought to get extra say in how tech is used of their lecture rooms” When she taught at a public college in Fullerton, California…
Molly Esquivel: I used to be requested by the principal to offer the youngsters iReady. You need to.
Nimah Gobir: Molly pushed again as a result of she didn’t suppose this system was a superb match for her college students. However her district had bought the iReady program and was requiring academics to make use of it.
Molly Esquivel: The principal got here again at me and stated, you must do that. So there are mandates, there are necessities.
Nimah Gobir: To her, that’s the larger subject. Choices about instructing are more and more being made far-off from the classroom.
Molly Esquivel: That skips over the very basis of curriculum and instruction and goes proper to handing over that pedagogic energy to a tool quite than an individual. And that to me will not be sound observe, sound pedagogy and fully, as I stated, sidelining not solely the knowledgeable, however the human.
Nimah Gobir: Molly needs extra alternatives for college students to work together with one another and with their trainer. She says the distinction feels apparent.
Molly Esquivel: I oftentimes seek advice from my classroom as a residing respiration organism. Youngsters are interacting with one another and even interacting with themselves and so they’re shifting and evolving and rising [00:26:28][18.3]
Nimah Gobir: Evaluate that to a classroom the place each scholar is engaged on a tool.
Nimah Gobir: It means youngsters have headphones on, their heads are tilted down to have a look at a display screen.
Molly Esquivel: They’re now interacting with an inanimate object. That doesn’t sit proper. It doesn’t sound correct. It doesn’t look proper. That’s not what lecture rooms would even be drawn as or what we’d ever think about them to be.
Nimah Gobir: For academics like Molly, the objective is to ensure expertise serves studying quite than changing the relationships that make studying potential. Amy Tyson is a toddler and adolescent psychologist and the founding father of EverySchool.
Amy Tyson: We had been offered units and advised that this was innovation. That like merely having the machine within the classroom equaled innovation. However what we ended up doing was simply changing conventional strategies that we all know work, which are tried and true, with units which are simply much less efficient.
Nimah Gobir: At her group, EverySchool, she has labored to synthesize analysis in order that academics don’t should. An enormous factor she did that many people don’t do was that she centered on analysis that wasn’t funded by folks with a stake in these tech instruments. An enormous discovering which will shock you is that there isn’t conclusive proof saying that tech is making youngsters smarter or improves studying.
Amy Tyson: Shortly after the widespread adoption of college subject units, which occurred across the 12 months 2012, we started to see an alarming downturn in tutorial outcomes additionally starting in 2012.
Nimah Gobir: Now, we are able to’t pin this all on edtech. There are a number of things which may be contributing, however at a minimal it’s protected to say it isn’t serving to.
Amy Tyson: EdTech has flourished within the classroom, our check scores, and I’d additionally prefer to say notably, the scores on loneliness, that are necessary for scholar well being and well-being, proceed to slide down 12 months after 12 months. So there’s actually zero indication that it’s serving to and I might say that there’s mounting proof that it’s harming . [00:11:40][13.1]
Nimah Gobir: Quite a lot of faculties use ed tech instruments
Amy Tyson: EdTech and TechEd are usually not the identical factor. However instructing tips on how to utilizing expertise, instructing transformative expertise abilities will not be the identical factor as utilizing expertise to show each topic.
Amy Tyson: Would argue that college students are much more more likely to be lacking out on gentle talent growth, essential considering, collaboration, communication, downside fixing, interpersonal abilities, empathy, creativity, even eye contact at this level.
Nimah Gobir: Amy additionally debunks that EdTech is impartial. You may hear edtech is a device… like a pencil
Amy Tyson: Screens do have uniquely damaging results that like a pen simply doesn’t have. Screens hijack our consideration, they distract us into a continuing state of multitasking, they infiltrate our reward system, give us fixed bursts of dopamine. It’s not the identical factor as a pencil. It isn’t a impartial studying device.
Nimah Gobir: And that brings us again to Lila and her son. Who was undoubtedly not utilizing his ipad like a pencil.
Lila Byock: Algebra’s onerous. It’s not very onerous to scroll YouTube.
Nimah Gobir: That is Lila once more. Speaking about her son.
Lila Byock: This 12 months we, earlier than the primary day of college, we notified the principal that our little one wouldn’t be taking house his machine and we opted him out of the iReady program.
Nimah Gobir: And academics had been very accommodating. Considered one of his academics was really fairly excited and stated that she’d do a one-on-one novel research with him whereas different college students used the iReady program on the IPad.
Lila Byock: And that simply speaks to the trade-offs which are being made in favor of those ed tech apps. You understand, our youngsters may very well be doing rigorous novel research, studying actual books. Which is so uncommon now.
Nimah Gobir: Since Lila first began asking questions, LAUSD has adopted new limits on scholar display screen time, together with restrictions on classroom machine use and new choices for households to decide out of bringing units house. It’s an indication that some districts are starting to rethink their relationship with expertise.
Nimah Gobir: Psychologist Amy Tyson and her EverySchool colleagues got here up with one thing referred to as the ed tech triangle , a framework designed to assist faculties make these selections extra deliberately. Image a triangle with the sharp tip dealing with downwards
Nimah Gobir: On the smallest pointy tip is Disruptive expertise
Amy Tyson: And that’s tech that disrupts studying and breeds routine use.
Nimah Gobir: Consider actions that pull college students away from studying, like unrestricted entry to cell telephones, or different extra display screen time makes use of.
Amy Tyson: So actually it’s one thing that we encourage educators to make use of to actually to keep away from utilizing if potential.
Nimah Gobir: Consider actions that pull college students away from studying like unrestricted entry to cell telephones, or different extra display screen time makes use of.
Nimah Gobir: One degree up within the triangle is restrictive expertise.
Amy Tyson: That’s proscribing studying outcomes.
Nimah Gobir: These are instruments which may be handy, however don’t essentially deepen studying. For instance, studying a digital worksheet as a substitute of a paper one, or finishing an exercise on a display screen that may very well be achieved simply as successfully with out one.
Amy Tyson: So, use sparingly and in very particular conditions for those who do find yourself needing to make use of it.
Nimah Gobir: These are instruments which may be handy, however don’t essentially deepen studying. For instance, studying a digital worksheet as a substitute of a paper one, or finishing an exercise on a display screen that may very well be achieved simply as successfully with out one.
Nimah Gobir: Third from the underside Second from the highest is supportive expertise.
Amy Tyson: Supportive is the world that helps studying in useful methods.
Nimah Gobir: This may embody issues like speech-to-text instruments, accessibility options, or software program that helps college students arrange their work– expertise that helps studying however doesn’t basically change it.
Amy Tyson: It may be useful for use carefully.
Nimah Gobir: This may embody issues like speech-to-text instruments, accessibility options, or software program that helps college students arrange their work– expertise that helps studying however doesn’t basically change it.
Nimah Gobir: And on the very high is
Amy Tyson: Transformative, which is a expertise that produces a singular end result or develops a excessive degree talent. [00:08:55][6.5]
Amy Tyson: We’re speaking about talent growth. So. It’s very onerous to show robotics for those who aren’t programming a robotic, for those who’re not utilizing a tool. That’s instructing a excessive degree talent, it’s producing a singular end result.
Nimah Gobir: In different phrases, expertise must be hardest to justify when it’s merely changing one thing that already works. Its strongest case is when college students are doing one thing they couldn’t do in any other case. And a few college leaders are already utilizing frameworks like this to make onerous selections, together with rolling again one-to-one units altogether.
Inge Esping: My title is Inga Esping. I’m the principal of McPherson Center Faculty at McPhersen, Kansas.
Nimah Gobir: Within the spring of 2024, Inge and different leaders at McPherson Center Faculty had been reviewing their information. For years, the college had been making regular tutorial positive aspects. However now, that progress was slowing.
Inge Esping: We had been beginning to really feel slightly like we had been plateauing. So our query was, how will we proceed the momentum that we’re on to actually enhance the tradition and the tutorial expertise in our faculty?
Nimah Gobir: At McPherson, each scholar had a Chromebook they carried to and from college. Lecturers started elevating a chance that echoed what mother and father like Lila had been saying: possibly the units had been getting in the best way.
Inge Esping: They had been annoyed by the distractions. They simply didn’t really feel that it was enhancing studying to the extent that they had been hoping to.
Nimah Gobir: Lecturers advised directors that when college students had been on their laptops, they ended up on laptops too. They spent much less time circulating, much less time connecting, extra time monitoring screens.
Inge Esping: They need to be busy round their classroom and serving to college students stay centered, downside clear up, actually to become involved. However they too felt actually tied to their very own units.
Nimah Gobir: Lecturers discovered themselves policing tabs and web sites. And over time, these fixed corrections started to pressure relationships with college students. Some college students felt a way of possession over their chromebook like “you may’t inform me what to do. That is mine.”
Inge Esping: And the way that will typically trigger a problem of not realizing precisely what was and wasn’t homework involved concerning the quantity of hours their college students had been on-line and saying that they’re engaged on college work when actually that wasn’t all the time the case.
Nimah Gobir: The 2 phrases that modified all the things had been what if. As in, What in the event that they didn’t do college this manner anymore?
Inge Esping: What if we helped our college students perceive it is a device that may be very highly effective to make use of. However at this level, the best way we’ve approached it proper now, it appears like extra of a distraction. And we’ve such necessary work that we’re making an attempt to do right here in class, we would like you to refocus.
Nimah Gobir: Faculty leaders started digging into the analysis –a lot of the identical analysis Amy Tyson pointed to— displaying that one-to-one units usually fail to ship on their guarantees.
Nimah Gobir: As a substitute of getting college students carrying Chromebooks all day, McPherson invested in classroom carts to maintain units within the room and had academics use them solely when academics believed they genuinely add worth.
Inge Esping: As we got here again this college 12 months, we began actually coaching our academics. That is coming. We’re unsure when. We’re not sure precisely the timeline. Truly over the past two days, college students have returned to their Chromebooks.
Nimah Gobir: This wasn’t a ban. And it wasn’t a inflexible coverage. It was extra of a reset.
Inge Esping: So college students will really come again and have zero Chromebook time for his or her first few weeks in our spring semester.
Nimah Gobir: McPherson is in a lucky place. Lecturers nonetheless have entry to bodily books, worksheets, and supplies. These are sources some faculties now not have as a result of they could have fully changed them with digital books or ed tech packages.
Inge Esping: All we’ve achieved is give steering. Please use them as sparingly as potential. Take into consideration once they actually improve the lesson, improve the training.
Inge Esping: So, over this subsequent 12 months, we’ll actually assess how usually are we on screens to think about if we have to have further targets or not.
Nimah Gobir: Inge is clear-eyed concerning the limits of this method. Holding Chromebooks at college gained’t magically clear up each downside. However she hopes it’s a begin.
Inge Esping: What I’m most pleased with the work right here is that I’ve a employees who is de facto courageous to strive one thing totally different. They’re permitting us to make this modification realizing that we’re going to face unknowns, we’re going to face challenges.
Nimah Gobir: Her hope isn’t that different faculties copy McPherson precisely, however that they really feel empowered to ask their very own “what if” questions.
Inge Esping: I might simply encourage. Colleges who’re additionally taken with becoming a member of us on this initiative to be courageous, acknowledge that there’s going to be challenges, talk together with your stakeholders when these challenges come up and search your group members, your college students, your mother and father, search their enter to be able to actually construct this system and the college that you just hope to see.
Nimah Gobir: MindShift is supported partly by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Basis and members of KQED. This episode was made potential by the Stuart Basis.
